Amway/Quixtar: Now Officially a Cult
[This is a follow-up to my original Amway/Quixtar MLM writeup "Selling Broken Dreams"]
I’d like to think I’m nearing the tail end of my MLM research binge (mini-obsession) that has consumed the better part of a week. Every word I read leaves me sick to my stomach after realizing just how widespread the Amway/Quixtar evil is. Despite going into this binge with a clear bias, I was willing to consider arguments as to why my bias was wrong. I thought accusations of Amquix (a preferred internet term among “haters”) being a cult had to be overblown, and necessarily limited to very small pockets to whatever extent they were true. I learned that AMO’s (Amway Motivational Organizations, now AQMO’s) – large groups formed by various high-ranking distributors/IBO’s to sell business “tools” – were responsible for the “bad stuff” but that the corporation had nothing to do with it. Amquix was still a horrible business opportunity, but it wasn’t a cult.
Then I find out that the Amquix corporation has been aware of these abuses for at least 24 years (as documented) and probably longer. Whatever small steps they took over the years to combat them, they eventually gave up and gave in. Now Amquix owners are directly tied into the AQMO’s, continuing to profit from them as they always have. Cult leaders make good cult followers who are very loyal to Amway products. It’s very easy for owners of a privately held company to look the other way as their highest ranking distributors siphon off hundreds of millions of dollars from their downlines through the sale of cult indoctrination tools as long as it guarantees product sales. This one guy Dexter Yager, who is probably the most insane man to currently walk the Earth, is the biggest cult offender. How has Amquix sanctioned him? By routinely giving him ever-increasing “largest ever in Amquix history” bonus checks. Watch this video of Yager giving a speech. This is at a BUSINESS CONVENTION. People probably shelled out $500 because they were repeatedly told that using the tools and going to conventions was the only way they could build their businesses. Now they have to listen to this lunatic ramble. What exactly is the business lesson?
Funny thing… Amquix fanatics have an answer for that question. I’m simply not “advanced” enough in “the system” to understand Yager’s wisdom. Does this sound at ALL familiar to Scientology which claims you can’t read the higher level “tech” until you reach it otherwise your brain will explode? Then once it all got leaked on the internet: “well of course you won’t understand it, you aren’t Clear yet. Oh and that isn’t the real stuff, it’s a lie. Oh, but still take it down, because you’re infringing on our copyrights.. or something.. or it’s libel. I don’t know, but take it down or we’ll sue you.”
—
Yesterday I read the free e-book “Merchants of Deception” by former Amway “Founder’s Emerald” Eric Scheibeler. I was going to provide the link to download the book without giving up an email address, but I think the guy has been fucked over enough. Eric’s a young man with a bright future and a loving wife. He falls for an Amway pitch and puts his all into building what he believes to be his business. He’s downline from a guy he refers to as “Zack Walters” who is really Fred Harteis. Look at that guy’s webpage and tell me he isn’t the Antichrist. Harteis is part of the Yager chain, but he has broken off to run his own tool-and-convention business. It’s these side-businesses that make certain distributors fabulously wealthy thus “proving” the system works and suckering in more people. Eric ends up devoting his life to Amway for the better part of a decade, never able to spend time with his family despite that being one of the biggest pitches (“retire and become a stay-at-home dad!”).
Safe to assume that everything in his life goes to shit. He gives a chilling portrayal of how he was indoctrinated step by step into the Harteis sub-cult. Once he was fully indoctrinated with the cult rules – never question your upline, never tell your downline anything, never say anything negative to anyone, never talk to anyone that isn’t in your direct line of sponsorship – his mind had been completely rewired to serve Amway. Later, when he’s trying to break away from Amway, he recalls watching a surviving member of Heaven’s Gate on an episode of Leeza. The guest makes a claim like “any one of you could fall victim to a destructive cult” at which point he’s booed and jeered by the crowd. I agree with the Heaven’s Gate dude – anyone stupid enough to watch a taping of Leeza could easily fall victim to a cult. That wasn’t exactly what he meant, of course…
The story of “Merchants of Deception” is largely one of how “anyone” can fall into a cult. I quote anyone because I refuse to believe I’m susceptible. Most people feel the same, which is the problem of course. I think I’m immune because I’m very aware of cult indoctrination techniques… one might say I’m studying them for the future. It was particularly chilling to read about all the doctors and other professionals who fell in with Amway, often quitting their jobs in pursuit of the dream. All that proves is that profession alone is not an indicator of one’s cult susceptibility. Thankfully I did not hear any mention of psychologists in the book, but earlier today I read that one of the top UK distributors is also a well-known psychologist. I threw up in my mouth a little when I read that.
I found it interesting that towards the middle/end of the book, Scheibeler repeatedly refers to what has happened to him as “rape”. I’ve been conditioned to not casually use the word rape (“Dude, I was totally raped by that test”) in the same way I wouldn’t call Dexter Yager a “flaming faggot”. It’s interesting how feminism and political correctness have secured ownership of the word rape, making “an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside” an archaic and uncouth definition. It’s because of this that Scheibeler’s use of “rape”, including at one point the term “gang rape” referring to how many people were in on it, really stands out from the page. Considering this guy’s identity was stolen from him for a decade during which he was unable to think for himself, was torn from his family, driven into financial ruin, and left with lasting psychological damage… I have no problem with his choice of terms.
Scheibeler is not a writer by trade, which is obvious while reading his book. It does lend a certain “I’m just a regular guy” credibility that aids his story. Despite his lack of literary background, he does an incredibly good job of explaining how psychologically fucked up he was as he became more and more aware of the massive Amway fraud, continuing as he left and had to deprogram all the cult indoctrination. At least some portion of the book was written post 9/11 and it’s clear at that point, after leaving Amway in 1999 (I believe), he was still suffering from residual problems. He feels responsible for pulling thousands of people in under him. As he points out, he wasn’t just in a cult… he was a cult leader. You don’t just snap back from that.
Amquix is doing all they can to ruin him to this day, as far as I know. Cults with money are known for their abuses of the legal system. Scientology anyone? Thankfully, British courts are much less willing to put up with cults in their country. It’s nice to know that at least one developed country is willing to shoot down frivolous Scientology/Amway bullshit in court, but justice can still be bought and sold in America. I’ve mentioned that a couple times recently, and I know how much it sounds like pointless America-bashing. Scheibeler wanted everything he found out to be untrue, and I feel the same way. But the truth is, those with money have multiple ways of bankrupting the average person who tries to fight them in court. A team of suits can overturn all but the most damning evidence… and sometimes even that through the use of loopholes.
—
On the topic of cults, the most interesting book I’ve ever read is “Bare-Faced Messiah” by Russell Miller. It’s a biography of L. Ron Hubbard that tells his true story, as opposed to the dozens of Scientology-released biographies that build him up as someone worth worshiping. Turns out Hubbard was actually a psychotic compulsive liar, not a war hero and all that he claimed to be. In fact, if I’m remembering this book correctly… Hubbard once got into an extended multi-day battle with an imaginary Russian sub right off the US coast while he was in the Navy. I think he ended up illegally firing on some island, but my memory could be spotty. If you’re ever interested in seeing just how twisted and insane one man can be, check that book out.
—
There’s something I noticed while reading various Amquix-related blogs (pro and con), and comments on these blogs. All the pro-Amquix “we are not a scam” arguments sounded very, very similar to one another. I wrote it off as a silly coincidence of them only having so many positions to fall back on, since it clearly is a pyramid scam. Reading “Merchants of Deception” put it into perspective for me. This was a case of “duplication” – a process in which you emulate and copy the people upline from you as much as possible. A cardinal rule I did not mention previously is that distributors are never to try anything new. There is no room for adaptation or creativity in Amquix cults. The system works – it has made thousands of millionaires. Why would you change something that works? Are you claiming to know more than your upline? Stifling self-determination and creativity sounds cultic to me.
That explains all the “how could this be a scam? Look at all the big corporations we’re partnered with” comments. They didn’t all independently come to this conclusion; this is how everyone, in certain AQMO’s at least, are taught to respond to any claim that Amquix is a scam. Another common argument is a result of widespread information available on the internet. Certain AQMO leaders are aware of how the tool fraud has hurt the Amquix reputation and therefore their growth/income. Members of several AQMO’s go out of their way to press how the tool fraud has nothing to do with Amquix, and that their organization has nothing to do with these (alleged) past instances of impropriety. Then, when pressed, these members will also say that the system is the only way to be successful in the business. Meanwhile, they’re paying the same amount for tools as every other AQMO but they insist nobody is making a profit off them.
Now that is indoctrination. I can’t imagine having that much mental control over someone. How do you get away with telling someone the truth about someone else, then claim you’re different while engaging in the very same behavior? I honestly do feel sorry for people who are/were in cults – I realize that the common outsider belief is “well, you chose that path, so nuts to you” but I understand how it was never really a choice. Still, it’s things like this that make people think of cult members as idiots.
—
There’s one guy in particular who scares the hell out of me. It’s hard to tell if he’s completely indoctrinated, or if he’s a leader in charge of the propaganda machine. Maybe both. He goes by the handles “insider” and “ibofightback” and runs a website he constantly promotes. He has popped up on every single YouTube link and blog I have read. He promotes an AQMO called “Network TwentyOne” or “N21″ that he claims to be “different”. These independent AQMO’s have no problem throwing each other under the bus if it helps their reputation. After all, if you are an IBO you own your own business! (Not true, but work with me) Amquix is only the supplier, other than that you’re on your own. Therefore the AQMO with Triple Diamond Grand Master Wizard Dragon Jim Dornan at the helm is 100% different than the AQMO down the street with Fred Harteis. There are a few common features, though. 1) No matter what the AQMO, nobody is going to make near the amount of money that is advertised. 99% of IBO’s are going to lose money. (Several groups claim they make no claim of future earnings. Right, people just sign up because the business plan sounds so good!) 2) Each AQMO has their own tools, but as far as I can tell they’re always referred to as “the system” and following “the system” is always the only way to succeed in the business.
Insider/ibofightback is particularly interesting because he claims to be (and presumably is) a “liberal atheist” or “liberal secular humanist”. It’s hard to tell what his level of indoctrination is, because his life is clearly devoted to Amquix. That’s one thing that comes through, even when he is contradicting himself or lying outright – he has an intense amount of conviction. What’s interesting is that he tries to use logic to create rational arguments, ones that I haven’t seen put forward by any other Amquix supporters. Now he’ll drop logic to support his world-view at a moments notice, but he’s clearly trying something new and attempting to be creative, which makes me wonder if he’s just a marketing employee for N21. I bring this guy up for a reason. I was reading some comments in regards to a complaint that was filed against N21 (his AQMO) among others, and he gave a very telling response:
I bet it’s not about N21 promoting religion.
I bet it’s not about N21 promoting politics.
I bet it’s not about N21 running it’s business with under the table cash payments to whoever it likes.
I bet it’s not about N21 “excluding” folk who aren’t “on the system”.
I bet it’s not about N21 calling people “losers” if they’re not interested.
I bet it’s not about N21 leaders showing off “excessive lifestyles” that don’t fit their Amway levels.
I’ll also bet it’s not about N21 leaders earning more from tools than Amway.
Some of these are blatant propaganda lies. I’m willing to counter-bet in his precious N21 that people are excluded by not following “the system” and of course its leaders are earning more from tools than from Amway. But the rest of those are interesting, and probably true. Amquix has reported on the average income levels of Emeralds and Diamonds, and many IBO’s know the numbers. They also know about the widespread tool scandals. This doesn’t matter in areas where indoctrination is complete, but it’s obviously going to hurt getting new recruits. And why risk the chance of cognitive dissonance driving your faithful cult members crazy like what happened to Scheibeler?
If you were pulling in millions a year in a scam, do you think you could spend a few years pretending to live on a meager 150k salary (which you could say is 250k, since 150k is the average for your level but you’re far above average)? 150k can afford a pretty nice lifestyle if you aren’t putting any of that money away and buying everything on credit. Keep in mind you get to travel all over the world to private “business retreat” tax breaks.. er, islands. At conventions you’ll be given the nicest suite, and nobody will question a thing because the company paid for it. You could easily spend 500k a year pretending to live on a 150k income, is that so hard an act to keep up?
It’s not as hard as everybody else downline making jack shit but pretending the business is working because they were taught to “Fake It Til You Make It!”
Oh, and his group doesn’t whore Christianity to lend itself moral legitimacy while forcing ultra-conservative political views on its members through scare tactics. Good for them, it’s almost like this AQMO’s leaders realized there was a huge potential market to be tapped of people willing to destroy themselves financially in pursuit of a false dream, but not if it meant having to jive with the creepy religious-political background. I had heard Amway is spreading like fire among “Desis“, a term I had never heard before but refers to people of South Asian origin. Apparently some people think the word is derogatory, so I won’t use it.. but I did feel like sharing its existence. That makes sense, seeing as the guy I met up with was Indian. So you figured out that you could dupe Hindus if you just toned down the Christianity a notch. That sounds like good business, not proof that you aren’t a cult.
Calling people losers? It’s not about what you say to their faces, it’s about what you say to one another and fully believe. I don’t care if someone calls me a loser, but it bothers me if they’re so indoctrinated that it’s the only way they know how to see me.
—
Accusing an organization of being a cult is very serious and should not be thrown around lightly. I don’t want to be the boy who cried cult. From what I’ve researched, I’m now prepared to call anyone invested heavily in Amquix a cult member until they individually prove me otherwise. I haven’t seen a single example of an online supporter who did not display incredible cultic tendencies. In my mind Amquix is no longer a “horribly flawed business model with some claims of there being cult-like activity”, it is a cult. Not everybody falls for it, considering over 50% of distributors quit every single year, but it’s still a cult in business clothing.
Admittedly, there are some very thin lines between what constitutes a cult and a regular organization in which members are very committed. There is always discussion as to which sectors of Christianity cross that line. Some is academic, and some is “hahahah religon iz stupid ur all in a cult hahahahhaha god is stupd.” Ask my buddy Josh if Jehovah’s Witnesses are a cult, and he’ll punch you in the face for asking such a stupid question. While few people consider them a part of Christianity, they aren’t often referred to as a cult. He thinks they are, and I tend to agree from what I’ve heard and read.
What about Catholicism? I grew up Catholic so I’m allowed to look at this one critically. Pretty standard Christian dogma for the most part. Protestants who hate Catholics (read: all sorts of hate groups, the entire early history of colonized America, etc) generally do so because they don’t trust the Pope. And there is something sort of strange about having a kingpin religious leader who can speak for God. What about the sex scandals where Catholic leaders just moved the priests around to different parishes? I realize a number of people did leave the Church at that point, and I will admit that I haven’t polled everyone else about how they felt. How do you justify staying after a scandal like that? “Oh, it was just a few… thousand.. isolated incidents. It doesn’t point to anything wrong in the Church or the beliefs.” If that was someone’s reasoning, then I would argue religion has a cult-like grip that is keeping them from admitting the truth to themselves.
What about that guy who holds up “GOD HATES FAGGOTS” signs at military funerals? What about snake-handlers? What about ultra-conservative sects? I ask this not because I disagree with their politics, but because they tend to be extremely close-minded and militant, with fervor to spare. What about any piece of shit belief set that tells me I am going to rot in hell for eternity if I do not accept Jesus Christ the Son of God as my personal savior? I am aware this is including almost all of Christianity. When a group’s leader seeks to keep his members in line by threat of eternal damnation, that is much too close to a cult for my tastes.
If you’re going to judge a cult by its destructive influence, how much psychological damage do you think has been done to sensitive kids who are told they will BURN IN HELL if they are bad?
There’s a common statement made by anti-religion crusaders when discussing Scientology: “What’s the difference between Christianity and Scientology? About 2000 years.” The point being, you can’t simply look to Scientology’s beliefs and state they are a cult. To an atheist, belief in Xenu is no more ridiculous than a belief in God. I believe the argument to be flawed. There is something about the human condition that leads us to believe in a higher power. And whether that is our ancestors, a pantheon, or a monotheistic God, their enduring appeal speaks to something greater than the imagination of a science-fiction writer/hack. It’s the money, domination, and crazy destructive views that make Scientology a cult.
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Nobody knows what a cult is. That’s a small problem when it comes to identifying them. I realize this now as I skim through the Wikipedia entry on cults: I probably should have done some research before rambling. On the other hand, I’m a firm supporter that the best kind of theory is one you make up on your own before you find out what experts have to say. It might let you think of something in an entirely new way that would be impossible once someone else’s framework is jumbling up your mind.
The wiki makes the point that the word cult is usually used against organizations that are believed to have negative influences on their members, but groups with positive influences can have cultic properties as well. It notes that one study determined Alcoholics Anonymous to be a cult. Well, I’ve heard of strain in relationships when one person does not know why the other is constantly off at meetings. AA does claim to be the ONLY way to stay sober, despite having a track record showing it no better than other kinds of treatment or doing absolutely nothing. The people at AA meetings are very strange, for the most part. Yeah, sounds like a fair assessment. I always knew there was a reason I didn’t want to be there, and now I know why. See, even when I’m not conscious of why, my mind steers me away from cults.
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I did have an experience, once… I was in this group. There was a clear distinction between who was an insider and outsider. I allowed it to take over my life for a time. I could claim I had a choice, but do you really have a choice when it comes to something you care about either succeeding or failing? Despite being democratic, there was a strict hierarchy. A certain level of conformity was required. There was no set policy for dealing with those who left the group… some ignored them, others remained friends. They certainly weren’t thought highly of, though. It had a big impact on destroying a couple relationships. Then again, a relationship that fails on the basis of “why can’t you spend every second of every waking moment with me?!?!!?” is probably better off dead. Hmmmm…. I’ll have to give this more thought.
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Dude, you quoted me there and said it was “propoganda”, yet gave not a single piece of evidence to back up the claim. You also said you’ve read details of the complaint against N21 – that’s interesting, since the only complaint against N21 I’m aware of is the one in the UK – and the details haven’t been made public.
Seems you’ve fallen hook line and sinker for the anti-amway brigades myths, exaggerations, and over-generalizations. It’s obvious because you just repeat the same old stuff mindlessly without any thought. You say for example -
“A cardinal rule I did not mention previously is that distributors are never to try anything new. There is no room for adaptation or creativity in Amquix cults.”
Really? I try new things all the time. Did I miss a brainwashing session or something?
You say -
“Meanwhile, they’re paying the same amount for tools as every other AQMO but they insist nobody is making a profit off them.”
Which, given how much you appear to have been researching, is nothing less than outright dishonesty on your part. If you’d read what you say, then you’d also know that some groups run fully above board, paying taxes etc, some apparently don’t. Some groups hire full-time staff, and offices etc to run the seminars ect – some groups use unpaid IBO volunteers.
Are you seriously claiming that an organization that charges the same price as another company, yet pays taxes and has employees, makes as much profit as one that doesn’t pay taxes and doesn’t have employees?
Of course not. So why do you ignore that obvious difference? And just provide more misleading and deceptive information on the internet echo chamber? Mate, that’s dishonest.
You also say about me “It’s hard to tell what his level of indoctrination is, because his life is clearly devoted to Amquix.”
Really? When I spend easily less than 10% of my time on it? Get real.
You also say “Amquix has reported on the average income levels of Emeralds and Diamonds, and many IBO’s know the numbers.” as if it some kind of secret.
Well duh. It’s on the paperwork you have to be supplied with before joining. It’s on the public websites like http://www.thisbiznow.com and http://www.quixtarfacts.com.
As for all the cult rubbish, it’s not only a UK diamond who is a psychologist. I am (or was) too. Try doing some *real* research instead of falling for the “cult of the amateur” on the internet. What does the American Psychological Association think about Margaret Singer’s “cult” theories which are the basis of things like Hassan’s BITE model? Here’s some quotes -
Singer’s hypotheses “were uninformed speculations based on skewed data.”
“lacking psychological theory, the report resorts to sensationalism in the style of certain tabloids”
“[...] seems to be unscientific in tone, and biased in nature. It draws conclusions, which in many cases do not mesh well with the evidence presented. At times, the reasoning seems flawed to the point of being almost ridiculous. In fact, the report sometimes seems to be characterized by the use of deceptive, indirect techniques of persuasion and control – the very thing it is investigating”
That’s what psychologists think of the cult bullshit. Now, don’t consider me some apologist for scientology or any other weird belief ( as you say – like christianity – is a “thetan” really any more bizarre than a “son of god”). There is indeed “something about the human condition that leads us to believe in a higher power” and it’s fairly well understood by evolutionary psychologists and biologists. As a scientist I would *expect* humans to create religious beliefs just as they have, all entirely with it having little basis in reality. Humans have done exactly that.
But, back to the main topic, Amway. Feel free to join the forums on http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com and participate in some real discussion on the issues. One of Amway’s biggest positives is that anyone can join and succeed. One of it’s biggest issues is that anyone can join and pretty much do what they want. You’re obviously a reasonably intelligent guy – is it not obvious that if someone is a right wing evangelical and promotes this opportunity that they’d appeal to others of a similar nature? And that would lead to a group of that nature? I’ve been listening to from CDs from Bill Britt’s organization this week, and frankly if I’d joined that organization I think there’s a fair chance I’d be running a critics website instead of a supporters site. I like to think if this had happened I’d be a critical enough and open minded enough thinker to understand that perhaps my experience with just one group that operates within the enormous Amway universe may not be the only one possible.
You should try entertaining the same thought.
As for me and my purpose. I’m just sick of reading stuff like this on the internet telling other people that I’m doing things that I’m not doing, and acting ways that I’m not acting. Quickest way to piss me off is to accuse me of stuff that’s not true. So I’m way pissed off. The reason you’ll find my comments all over youtube? Easy – I put the videos there. The reason why you’ll find me commenting on sites like this? Easy – google gadgets tells me each day about new Amway/Quixtar posts and I know that folk I talk to about my business will get online, read this stuff, and think that’s what I do.
If you meet some Amway idiot, then fine, accuse them of being an idiot. But to generalize to the literally millions of folk who work with Amway around the world is not only ridiculous, it’s intellectually bankrupt. You write well enough for me to believe you’re more intelligent than that. Act it.
The Truth About Amway
ibofightback,
I was clearly baiting you. And for that, well, I feel weird. I have no idea why I would do such a thing. I’ll admit I took liberties with incomplete information. I obviously do not know exactly how each organization handles tools. All I know is based on bits and pieces of information found online.
For every person who has said “you should check out this organization”, they have later ceded that “following the system is the only way to succeed.” My understanding of all organizations’ tools is that they tend to be self-help oriented, not business-oriented. I have a problem with this, for the same reason I feel uneasy when I think about people spending $200 to go to a self-help guru’s seminar.
I’m not saying people shouldn’t have the right to do what they want with their money. I just don’t appreciate snake-oil salesmen bilking the public. People obviously get something – or think they are getting something – out of the self-help industry, since it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise. In the end, I agree with the critics – self-help offers easy answers to difficult problems, just like Amway. That would be a beautiful thing, if it worked…
I’m sure as part of your system you’ve had to read books. Did you buy them direct from your upline? Did you buy them at a premium through your online partner Barnes & Noble? Or did you go on Amazon and pay 25 cents for a used copy?
What else… you say I claim to have read details of a complaint, whereas I actually said “I was reading some comments in regards to a complaint.”
You found my blog within 48 hours and wrote an extended reply, but you only spend 10% of your time on Amway? You, sir, have time-management skills that put mine to shame.
You say I imply that openly quoted numbers are a secret? What part of me acknowledging they are in the open leads you to believe I think they are a secret?
I admit that nobody knows how to define a cult. Therefore, I can only go with my gut feeling that large pockets of Amway are full of manipulation and other naughty things that, to me, make it a cult. If your organization is different, I am glad – it means one less organization running a cult as a business. Your actions online do not provide the most compelling evidence against it being a cult, though. You know, your “cult-like fanaticism” and all.
I think you’re a bright guy. You like to argue, and if you can do that with a quick wit and a smile in person, I’m sure you’ve recruited plenty. So I understand – your rabid desire to deny Amway “rumors” is to protect something that you’ve built. You’re probably profitable now and don’t want to see “your” business fall down. Of course, you don’t really own your business, do you?
Here’s my “putting the foot down” Amway comment: look at the 70% rule. 70% of products purchased are to be sold before ordering more. Amway’s lawyers consider a sale to oneself for personal consumption to apply towards this 70% rule. The spirit of the law, to me, is that this 70% sold ought to be to people that are not you or any other IBO. This is the primary different between a legal pyramid scheme (by definition and shape of a pyramid), and an illegal pyramid scheme.
If you aren’t selling 70% of your purchases to people outside Amway, you are a part of an illegal pyramid scheme. This is what I believe. So disregarding all the cult nonsense – I’m just as disinclined to be a member of an illegal pyramid scheme.
It took next to no time at all to find your site – it came up on my home page using iGoogle gadgets. The wonders of the ‘net.
One question – why do you believe it is an illegal pyramid if 70% is not sold to people outside Amway? The courts don’t believe this. The FTC doesn’t believe this. Why would you? Just because Amway’s lawyers happen to agree with the courts and the FTC? I already know the answer – you’ve believed another anti-mlm myth. I recommend you read – MYTH: 70% Retails Sales Rule
What’s important is the motivation for purchase. If people are buying legitimate products out of a legitimate desire for the products, then it doesn’t matter who purchases it. But yes, if you somehow break Amway’s rules and “force” people to buy products they neither want or need, then you could be running an illegal pyramid. But you’d be breaking the rules to do so.
You say about the tools – “they tend to be self-help oriented, not business-oriented.” I’m not quite sure how to interpret this. If you own and operate your own business, isn’t any “business-oriented” tools you buy, by definition “self-help”? What do you mean by “self-help” exactly? I can’t speak for other systems, but we have books/CDs/DVDs/MP3s/Streaming video on product knowledge, psychology, sales techniques, health, skin care, cosmetic use, handling objections, leadership, goal setting etc etc etc. There’s also this “critic” myth that the “tools” are just about motivating the IBO – they’re not. They’re primary use is as a business tool – to explain the business and give credibility belief about the business to prospects. I can lend a CD with someone of far greater success and credibility than me to a prospect. Takes a few minutes. Or I could spend hours trying to “convince” them myself. Tools are meant to be used as business tools – that’s why they’re called tools!
You say – “I’m sure as part of your system you’ve had to read books. Did you buy them direct from your upline? Did you buy them at a premium through your online partner Barnes & Noble? Or did you go on Amazon and pay 25 cents for a used copy?”
No, I don’t “had to” do anything. But yes, it’s recommended. I don’t buy them from my upline, I generally buy them direct from the BSM company – and every time I have done a price comparison they have been *cheaper* than other suppliers such as B&N and Amazon (used aside). I have also bought direct from the publishers and also used copies via Amazon.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by “Of course, you don’t really own your business, do you?”. Yes of course I own my business. Amway/Quixtar businesses can and do get sold by their owners on regular basis.
Finally, to address your comment – “Your actions online do not provide the most compelling evidence against it being a cult, though. You know, your “cult-like fanaticism” and all.”
Do you consider any other business protecting it’s reputation to be “cult-like fanaticism”? I have a business. It is being unfairly and incorrectly maligned by folk on the internet. This is damaging my ability to grow my business. There are sensible business reasons for me to be defending Amway and Quixtar.
Contrast this to the actions of folk like Scott Larsen (amquix) and Steve/JoeCool and others on “QuixtarBlog”. Some critics spend far more time than I do attacking A/Q. If I, with legitimate business reasons, am accused of being cult-like for defending my and my businesses reputation – how would you describe the actions of the anti-amway crowd?
On the 70% rule, I also refer you to
MYTH: It’s a pyramid if most products are bought by IBOs
I would also add, as I have made clear many times on various A/Q sites, I do not believe that a focus on internal consumption alone is a particular smart business model and it’s not one I pursue. It is however perfectly legal.
The law is only the law until it changes. With the kind of clout Amway has, I doubt it’s changing on this subject anytime soon. That is why, to be fair, I referred to my conception of the spirit of the law. Text from your link, regarding the FTC v. Amway (1979): “73. To ensure that distributors do not attempt to secure the performance bonus solely on the basis of purchases, Amway requires that, to receive a performance bonus, distributors must resell at least 70% of the products they have purchased each month.”
I choose to interpret the word “resell” as not meaning “purchase product directly from Amway, then purchase product from self.” I’d like to think that, in America, I have that right. And regardless of what a bunch of highly-paid lawyers and a couple government officials under pressure from bought-off politicians have to say… I think a lot of people would agree with me.
Unrelated to this… you’re making money for Amway’s owners. Given their politics, beliefs, and some of the things they do with the money, I could never be a part of their company. Regardless of how your particular LOS is different, they turned a blind eye to so many others who were destroyed by the company they own. They give outlandish bonus checks to a guy like Yager. Cmooooon, admit that to some small extent their blood is on your hands. Hehe.
This is a big deal to me. At what point does money trump ethics? I am looking for a job right now, and that’s a big qualifier that has kept me from applying to quite a few.
In the 70s, IBOs purchased all their products from their sponsor, who purchased them from their sponsor and so on and so on until a Direct Distributor – who was called this because they dealt directly with the company. You have retail sales – to an end consumer – and you have wholesale sales – to someone who will resell them, another IBO.
The 70% rule is designed to stop people having the proverbial “garage full of soap”. The product has to be *legitimately* used or resold. If folk are stocking it in the garage or burying it in the back yard or pooring it down the sink, they’re breaking that rule. If everyone follows the rule, then there is always a final sale to a legitimate end-user, and that’s what is important.
In today’s world most folk deal directly with the corp. so the wholesale sales bypass the IBO, but they “virtually” still happen. Nevertheless, the corp. has tweaked the rule to explictly include one’s own purchases. You still have to sell 70% to another IBO or to an end-user. There is no legal or indeed ethical reason why that end-user cannot be the IBO themselves. Indeed, in many cases, as the FTC understood back in the 70s, folk join purely for the purpose of getting the products cheaper. If you liked the products you’d actually have to be pretty stupid not to join and get them cheaper, wouldn’t you agree?
As for the “making money for Amway’s owners” – yup, entirely true. And they and I do not agree about the political parties we support. As for Yager, well, I’ve learned enough on the ‘net to realize I can’t believe everything I read, so I can’t make a judgement there. I’ve been listening to some Britt tapes lately and he’s lambasted evolution and democrats, but I think that’s his right to support whatever causes he wants. I just wish he didn’t do it in a business environment and thus have that kind of stuff associate with me.
If you tracked every company and business you dealt with, and tried to trace their ownership and who makes money out of it, I doubt there’d be *any* major company that didn’t have someone making money out of it that supported causes you disagreed with. As it is, having read much about how the DeVos’ and Van Andel families believe, I think they’ve got it wrong. In general, their philosophies actually fit better with the modern Democratic party than with the modern Republican party.
My integrity is my most valuable commodity. I do not compromise it. But as part of that I respect peoples right to disagree with me and hold other opinions, and I respect their right to support whatever causes they believe in. I also fully expect them to be as human as I am and to make mistakes and do the wrong thing sometimes.
The Amway business model itself is quite simply the most ethical business model I have encountered. Some people may not use it ethically, but that’s people isn’t it?
You of course also have the right not to support Amway, or any other company, but I’d hope you’d want to do so for the right reasons, and not because of some myths, falsehoods, or over-generalizations you read on the ‘net.
ibofightback,
I find it odd that I knew it was pointless to argue with you and chose to anyway. I promised friends I’d get off the MLM kick for the sake of my sanity, which means I’ll let you have the last word soon.
Referring to Amway as an “ethical business model” is straight duplication, and you know it. It pops up everywhere. Usually right next to claims that the stock market is a bad investment because “I once knew a guy who lost all his money.”
There’s nothing wrong with duplicating actual truth, but Amway is not an ethical business model. Whatever extended reasoning you have for why you “believe” it is does not change fact. Keep on lying to yourself and others, Mr. Integrity.
I hope you’re aware that by virtue of being associated with people who are routinely taught to “Fake It Til You Make It”, you lose absolutely all credibility in any argument regardless of how logical you may appear. I realize that sucks for you, but it’s your fault for getting involved in a global scam and cult. From now on, I will use the word scult.
You can Scream Til You’re Blue about how your organization is different and how you’ve never been taught to “fake it”, but I have no reason to believe you. If you were in another MLM, I’d have to give you a chance until I had reason to distrust. Unfortunately, you’re in the one that has ruined hundreds of thousands of lives worldwide and stolen money from many more. Why should I believe you simply because you claim to be speaking the truth when everyone else in your shoes clearly lies?
Your actions do not just affect those in your personal LOS. You run a website that promotes Amway. You clearly want people to become IBO’s and you can’t control which line they end up in. There’s a strong chance your actions have helped recruit people into a line that is a scult, even if yours is not. Allegedly.
Be certain that people in other lines have duplicated your arguments and sculted many as a result of your efforts. You’re a bright guy: you lie well, and you make it sound reasonable. I can respect you for that, as it is a skill, as long as you realize the negative impact you have had on the world. All for what.. 3k a month if you’re an Emerald?
Why do you think Amway has spread so quickly across immigrant communities in the US? People immigrate to America because of the Dream, and you have no problem with Amway destroying them. Get nice and cozy with a tight-knit community where people trust one another and it doesn’t even take a high pressure sell with promises of untold riches to recruit.
Quixtar is a scam. I know it is, and I hope you know it is. I legitimately hope you are just an unethical person who is aware of how you scam others. There’s no way to legitimately believe in the Amway business model without having been sculted. I’d rather see you steal money than minds.
The products are overpriced. I’m sure Amway has their own version of “loss leaders” where they cut the profit margin of a few items to make the price competitive with name brands. That way you could compare the cost before tax and shipping of an Amway product favorably with the “retail value” of the most overpriced name brand (which nobody ever pays because it’s always on sale).
The typically duplicated response to the “products are overpriced” argument is “Amway’s products are concentrated.” Are you serious? What kind of brainwashing has to take place for someone to believe that’s a valid argument?
I’m not saying Amway doesn’t have concentrated products that end up being lower cost per use compared to other brands despite being higher cost by volume. But it is cost per use that is the important number… just saying “it’s concentrated” makes someone look brain-dead.
You are not allowed to advertise the products. Is this a myth? If so, please give me the relevant link on your site. You are an “independent business owner” and Amquix is “only your supplier”, but you aren’t allowed to advertise the products you are supposed to sell? But you insist that you own your business. Kudos to the self-deception.
I know the response. The Amway opportunity should be equal for everyone. Someone with a lot of money shouldn’t have an unequal advantage because they can afford to advertise their products. In fact, this is proof that Amway is the most ethical business model! Everybody has an equal chance to succeed! This logic is fucked on so many levels it’s not worth attacking. I’m not trying to change sculted minds; any rational person will see the absurdity.
I know it’s a scam. I wrote these MLM blog entries because a friend of mine tried to recruit me. He can do what he wants with his life, but I won’t let him pull in our mutual friends. These friends are my only audience, so there’s no real reason for you to argue with me; my friends will trust me over you any day.
It infuriates me that so many people worldwide are not only being scammed, but possibly indoctrinated into a cult. I am angry that so many relationships have been ruined. Careers lost. Credit destroyed. Houses foreclosed. Sane people don’t purposely let these things happen without a powerful force compelling them away from reason.
—
My major in college was sociology. I realize Amway organizations don’t value education and urge potential recruits who are in college to drop out. Scults don’t like their members to be educated, but I’m getting away from the point. Yes, yes, your organization doesn’t do this. Since some do, I can’t trust you. Sorry.
As a sociology major, I am very well versed in Marxist theory. I could go on and on about how all businesses exploit workers. In fact, I could do a damn good hard sell for Amway using a basic term like “surplus value.”
I’m sure you already explain to your recruits how their job doesn’t pay them what they’re “really worth”, but I think you’d be 5% more successful if you used the term “surplus value.” Just don’t note the Marxist origin.
There’s a fine line between a company like Walmart which pays its employees shit and actively lobbies against employer-provided health care and Costco which pays a livable wage while still providing value to stockholders.
What, exactly, is ethical about a pyramid scheme that lets someone you’ve never met profit off your work? At least explain how it’s any different than a standard business model. You know, except that in a standard business you get an offer that you accept. You have certain rights as an employee. You might even get benefits. Granted, you don’t get to pretend you own a business. But sometimes reality is better than make-believe!
Why not let an IBO keep all of its commissions? Nobody would recruit? If the business opportunity is so great, and you’re going to target friends and relatives anyway – why do you need a monetary incentive to recruit?
See, in a REAL business, you would actually sell products or provide services to people. You wouldn’t want to bring the whole world into your wonderful opportunity because they would compete with you. Now in a scult, where you take peoples’ lives and money, you aren’t recruiting competition. You buy overpriced junk for yourself, and teach others how to do it. Now in this honest, ethical business model – it is mathematically necessary that 99% of people lose money. Which they do!
Of course, your organization doesn’t give people unrealistic expectations of earnings. It’s just every single other one.
How do you keep someone around when they’re constantly losing money? Tell them how close they are to making it. Blame them for their failures. Fake that you’re earning more than you are, and they can too. You don’t get people to stick around losing all their money without being a scult.
And this is your most ethical business model? I know you aren’t an idiot, so stop acting like one. What about, oh, a co-op? Or those rare instances where an employer leaves a business to his employees. You know, models where people make fair wages and can run things democratically.
You know you’re scamming people. You know you’re helping bring them into organizations that can ruin their lives if they don’t wake up and get out in time. So you can have the last word, and I’ll even give you the joy of having the “look, he can’t think of anything to say in rebuttal to my arguments so he has to resort to personal insults” argument. You get your last word, I get my last two:
Fuck you.
Oh good grief. The number of straw men, exaggerations, and outright falsehoods in that diatribe was incredible. Was it a deliberate attempt to babble me to death?
But let’s attempt … no, I can’t be bothered. You actually didn’t say anything. Just called me a liar and repeated talking points without backing them up.
Virtually the entire rant was asking me “when did I stop beating my wife?”. All you have successfully done is prove your limited experience and related ignorance of how I and many other people run their Amway businesses.
Here’s the classic ignorant anti-amwaybot spiel – “See, in a REAL business, you would actually sell products or provide services to people.”
Really? Then I guess imagined the nearly $700 worth of products we sold to a customer and full retail price today.
And you call us dishonest, when you make false claims and accusations?
Another classic ignoramus comment – “I realize Amway organizations don’t value education and urge potential recruits who are in college to drop out.”
Pathetic. Every single one of the upline I associate with has university degrees. I have multiple degrees (including postgrad in sociology incidentally) and am seriously considering a PHD in the field of nutrition. The guy who founded our organization was an aerospace engineer. His kids go to university – and also build this business.
Here you are again stating outright lies about what we do.
You’re ranting and raving about something and you have an extremely limited view of how it works. I’ve little doubt you’ve just read and believed the internet echo chamber.
Oh, and average Emerald income is over $6000/mth and some Emeralds have received bonuses of over $500,000/yr.
Still, I am curious about how you manage to get along in a world where you think it’s unethical if “someone you’ve never met profit(s) off your work”
Well, it’s been interesting. I actually thought from your first post you were a reasonably intelligent and open-minded person. But it seems you’ve no interest in anything but believing what you’ve decided to believe, to hell with reality.
hi why you love to condemn so much and you do not even one shit about quixtar you always find that empty vessels make the most noise you people are so negative that why you all could never reach anywhere in life get involved before you talk about something stop listening to others when talking rubbish.
when millionaires cross the stage every year in F.E.D does that look fake to you all these people buying new homes all over america is that fake i am a happy I.B.O let me tell you something if you do not perform in this business you do not get pay simple there is no cult involved and every business has motivation meetings when they want to build confidence in workers it is pure rubbish to say that is cult like please go to the dictionary and fine the meaning of cult before you people talk a pack of shit
and talking about pyramid in quixtar everyone has the same opportunity to become rich based his or her performance in a pyramid only the guy on top get all the money not at quixtar everyone must duplicate his or her business and let me tell you when you work at whatever company your boss get the profits and guess what you can never get higher than your boss you know what in quixtar there is no boss and you have the opportunity to go higher than anyone you met in the business.
Hey ibofightback! You’re awesome. I too am so tired of uninformed and unsubstantiated comments from blowhards like antoverlord.
I too make money, sell stuff, help other business owners in my downline, think for myself, get business advice from my upline… AND am saddened by misguided IBOs who do stupid things with this business (like Woodward, Brady, and Harteis)
Take it as a win that antoverlord can only resort to 4-letter words in an attempt to make a point.
Seems to me that since such a fine organization as Quixtar is about to disappear says it all. I wonder how these dream sellers are going to explain to their new marks that “This isn’t Amway!” Their ingenious replacement name: “Amway–the new Amway”? Hmmm? Who is that going to fool? Seems to me that this AmQuix ponzi business model is about to collapse–especially in light of the IBO Rebelion, slow recruitment, and poor turn out for scam-functions. Hard to understand why they want to park the bones of this dead beast Quickscar under the pelt of the earler failed beast scamway and hail it as the “New Amway” as if no rationally thinking person will not notice the maggots and stench. You suckers: who have bought into these fool’s gold schemes, need to wake up and get out before wasting more denaro down this rathole. Alticor is going to polish the turd again! Hmmm? I alway heard that couldn’t be done. Guess I’ve been lied to all along. Amway… Scamway… Quickscar… Three Card Monte… Ponzi!!!!!!
insider/ibofightback is a PR hack for N21 and or Amway/Quixtar so you can expect nothing less than the propagande he spews.
Amway / Quixtar is definitely a cult. I’m a former platinum for WWDB. I gave everything to this business for 5 years before I finally woke up. I missed time with my kids, went horribly into debt, cashed in 401ks, traveled all over the country, and lost plenty of friends all in the pursuit of the diamond myth. We made money but reinvested all of it back into the business either traveling, buying inventory (tons of cds), or buying product to hit the next level. We went on tons of trips that we won and were totally bought into the dream. I find myself now without a career (I supposedly retired) about 75k in debt. I totally depended on my diamond’s “counsel” for every decision in my life. I thought if I was totally plugged in, I would be operating in the power of submission and it would work for us. We sponsored over 1000 people in our organization with us personally sponsoring over 40 people. We built depth and followed the system to a tee. It didn’t work. We feel horribly guilty for all the people we led into this business. We made money but not one of our downline did. Our diamonds are the only ones who are better off 5 years later. Our emeralds have been out of qualification for 2 years but are still recognized as emeralds and edified like crazy. They no longer speak to us since we’ve “gone inactive”. If anyone is thinking of joining this business – PLEASE DON’T!!!! It is all a bunch of lies – no one is making the money they say they are. The diamonds are falling out of qualification like crazy and it is a total sham. Mind control is real – I have a college degree and so does my husband. We were very successful professionals when we started and we got sucked into the web of deceit. I’m not some disgruntled loser, I built this business and was in the inner circle of one of the “fastest growing businesses” of WWDB. Amway and Scientology have some scary commonalities – stay away far far away from them both.
Amway / Quixtar is definitely a cult. I’m a former platinum for WWDB. I gave everything to this business for 5 years before I finally woke up. I missed time with my kids, went horribly into debt, cashed in 401ks, traveled all over the country, and lost plenty of friends all in the pursuit of the diamond myth. We made money but reinvested all of it back into the business either traveling, buying inventory (tons of cds), or buying product to hit the next level. We went on tons of trips that we won and were totally bought into the dream. I find myself now without a career (I supposedly retired) about 75k in debt. I totally depended on my diamond’s “counsel” for every decision in my life. I thought if I was totally plugged in, I would be operating in the power of submission and it would work for us. We sponsored over 1000 people in our organization with us personally sponsoring over 40 people. We built depth and followed the system to a tee. It didn’t work. We feel horribly guilty for all the people we led into this business. We made money but not one of our downline did. Our diamonds are the only ones who are better off 5 years later. Our emeralds have been out of qualification for 2 years but are still recognized as emeralds and edified like crazy. They no longer speak to us since we’ve “gone inactive”. If anyone is thinking of joining this business – PLEASE DON’T!!!! It is all a bunch of lies – no one is making the money they say they are. The diamonds are falling out of qualification like crazy and it is a total sham. Mind control is real – I have a college degree and so does my husband. We were very successful professionals when we started and we got sucked into the web of deceit. I’m not some disgruntled loser, I built this business and was in the inner circle of one of the “fastest growing businesses” of WWDB. Amway and Scientology have some scary commonalities – stay away far far away from them both.
ibofightback is probably lying about selling $700 worth of stuff. He said he has been inactive for the last five years. His story broke on http://www.amquix.info
I was in network 21 some years ago and I spent a lot of cash on seminars and tapes because my upline said it was vital to my success. Boy were they wrong! The seminars and tapes were the reason why my business suffered losses.
IBOFightBack aka Insider’s real identity can be found on the Quixtar Blog Forum and on the Amquix info website.
I think he is somehow compensated by the corporation for putting a positive twist on amway and quixtar.
I was in Amway in the UK in 93 or thereabouts. I was a single dad, two young kids, unemployed, in debt, it sounded great! Work hard for a few years, build the dream, then semi retire and spend the time with the family, able to get them all the stuff they desired!! I worked my butt off, bought all the stuff I was told to (didn’t have anything in the house that wasn’t Amway – toothpaste, soap, aftershave, fabric softener – bought the books and tapes every week, went to all the functions, and pretended I was doing well all the time) and ended up deeper in debt. Then, when my son was 10, he was diagnosed with a brain tumour and died. And I’d spent all that time on Amway when I could have spent it with him. Nothing more to say.
They tried to recruit recently, i didn’t join because i had an eerie feeling in the pit of my stomach. The people there were using the same words such as “Awesome”. I thought it was creepy, and at the end of the meeting they ask me if i wanted to join. I told them let me think about it, and i would call the person who brought in a couple of days. I never did, she contacted me a couple of times, i just blew her off. If anyone has thought of joining. Please don’t, they don’t explain the business plan very well. They are selling a pipe dream that none of you will never reach. Enough said
I saw a plan recently by an Amway distributor. He told me I could retire early if I did exactly what the teaching system advised. I think it was a system called network 21 but I questioned it because he kept telling me I needed to attend meetings (which were not free) and buy cd’s that would help me learn how to grow my downline. I decided not to join because I couldn’t afford all of the stuff they talked about.
My Friend from High School is part of a similar scam selling life insurances. I have tried to tell him it is a scam but he is brainwashed. How can I advise him not to mess his life up…
Thanks
Yeah, I too saw a N21 presentation and they were pushy about sending newbies to these seminars. The seminars were quite expensive and it didn’t teach me anything, at least the seminar I attended. I quit because the products didn’t save me money like the presentation claimed and to top it off, I ended up spending money to attend a useless seminar.
I saw the plan in 1977. Never joined, but like the product demo at the time. Didn’t join cause I was pissed that the distributor was deceptive by telling me all I needed to do was be a manager. Of course, that was not the real story. Two of my kids got in after it became Quixtar. I went to many meetings and listened to some of the CDs with them to encourage them in the “new” Internet business. Surely, it had changed. From talking to them about the business and being very familiar with the “Systems” side, I have personally observed and heard most of the things in Eric Scheibeler’s book.
If you do the math, there is no way to make the big money claimed by Amquix. Only the Diamonds and above make the big money and it comes from the Systems side: CDs, Book of the Month, phone system, tickets to functions, and travel reservations through their own agency. Don’t take my word for it. Ask someone heavily involved some pinpoint questions.
Start adding up the money generated from CDs. A CD per week times the number on automatic distribution (“Ditto”) at $5-$7 per copy on a 20 cent disk. The speaker’s fee (for speakers that may be remunerated) is already paid for in the ticket prices. Now start punching out CDs for 20 cents a piece and sell them for about $6. That’s a hefty chuck of change NOT shared with the downline. That’s NOT in The Plan. Okay, try $200 a ticket for a function, and usually for husband and wife, which makes it $400. Travel arrangements are made through their agents. Ask your friend how much they pay for their travel. Then compare with Orbitz, Travelocity, AAA, AARP, Carlson-Wagonlit, or directly online with the hotel, etc. Downline are heavily encouraged (or pressured the longer they stay in or advance) not to miss. Is it becoming clearer to you?
I find it extremely difficult to have a conversation with my kids about anything normal. One of them left the room every time the TV was turned on at our house. I could go on and on about what seems like brainwashing, but let me refer you to Eric’s ebook instead. He says everything I’ve witnessed at my kids’ journey to just below the Direct level. I cannot validate all of the narrative given by Mr. Scheibeler past this level, but it fits with comments I personally heard from my kids’ upline.
I strongly encourage you to visit Steven Hassan’s Freedom of Mind website to learn about mind control and brainwashing. I know that BWW’s “Nine Core Steps” and the Systems culture fits into Mr. Hassan’s model very well.
It is sad that those in AmQuix will defend it. I don’t blame them. All cults develop counter arguments to “negative” people and steadily indoctrinate their followers. I can easily see their defenses. I think there are even some similarities in politics and political campaigning. How else can you explain the extreme polarization between parties where so many defend the indefensible? I think it’s because they accept the party line and quit thinking for themselves.
For those of you who are on the fenceline, have just started your “business”, or are thinking about it, please look at both sides, and question everything. Read about cults in general and learn the patterns they all take. Don’t buy into the system because everyone is so nice, loving, has values that match your own, you’re helping others, or there appears to be “credibility”, and finally, because some bigshot in the organization gives you personal attention. Remember, deception ALWAYS mixes truth and virtue with fraud. Otherwise, we’d always see it for what it is from the very beginning.